Shame: The Great Isolator
Jamie: Today, I'm really excited to have an awesome guest. Josiah Stumbo. Josiah is the young adult pastor for Grace CMA Church in Middleburg Heights.
Josiah: Thank you. It's such an honor to be here. It's been so fun knowing you over the past year. You're somebody I look up to so much and have spent time under your teaching and spent time in your office and just have gained so much from you. And this topic of shame really is something that you've taught me a lot about, especially recently that I'm starting to really just beginning to unpack.
So this is going be a fun conversation because I've still got a lot of questions.
00:01:00:09 - 00:01:21:04
Speaker 1
You know, you wonder why in the world we should even talk about this in a podcast. But shame is the universal emotion. It is one that is the first emotion we actually ever felt once we became aware of ourselves. Someone said one time there was a time when we were so covered in love and so covered in grace that we could just walk around naked and not even know it.
00:01:21:23 - 00:01:46:07
Speaker 1
But what? I'm naked, I know it. And that's when we became aware of who we are and the first feeling we felt about that was shame. So it's a really is is actually Satan's greatest tool to use against us, to isolate us, to make us separate from each other and to gain control over us. So it's really an important, important topic to talk about.
00:01:46:14 - 00:02:08:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, it seems like one of the methods he uses to get us to feel shame is to make it confusing and make it kind of concealed, especially as I've been noticing. Kind of you help me see for the first time how pervasive it is in my life. And I start to realize, Wow, so many of my decisions are made with kind of shame underneath it.
00:02:08:23 - 00:02:20:02
Speaker 2
And so many of my insecurities come from that. And so maybe to help us, like with some clarity can you stab at a definition of what shame even is?
00:02:21:03 - 00:02:51:08
Speaker 1
It's shame is is basically vulnerability. It's the feeling that we have of being inadequate and of being dependent of when we're vulnerable, we are actually subject to be hurt. And so we're exposing ourself. That's one of the things that the reasons that we hide is we've been hurt and we are afraid to show ourselves to each other. But shame does also come in three different forms and each one of those forms is is from a different source.
00:02:51:08 - 00:03:20:09
Speaker 1
But it also is what keeps us from being able to really know what to do with it. You know, the first form is shame we really need to keep. It's just the fact that we are helpless, we are inadequate, we are vulnerable. And that's really scary in a dangerous world. But it's also what brings us to our knees and makes us know that we need help.
00:03:20:09 - 00:03:54:04
Speaker 1
We need each other, we need God. We need people around us. And that initial natural shame is basically the first time that we felt shame at all and started to hide as interesting. The first feeling we felt was shame and the second feeling we felt was fear, the fear of being known. And just that whole idea of of someone seeing our vulnerability, someone seeing our inadequacy, it's in when we started to hide from each other, you know, because we we were scared.
00:03:54:04 - 00:04:00:07
Speaker 1
And I have never in 40 plus years of being a counselor ever met anybody who did not want to be loved.
00:04:01:00 - 00:04:01:05
Speaker 2
To.
00:04:01:09 - 00:04:26:13
Speaker 1
More. But almost everybody I've ever met is terrified to be known. And we can't truly be loved until we're truly known. Hmm. And so there's a real double bind. And they are real dilemma that we have. So natural shame is the kind that we have to accept in order to allow other people into our life, in order to invite people into our life, in order to surrender ourselves to God as well.
00:04:26:13 - 00:04:54:05
Speaker 1
And so there's there's just a but it gets complicated because when we born into a family or a situation or we grow up in a situation that has we're in unsafe where people can't love us, well then we develop another kind of shame. And it's the trap that most people have is imposed shame.
00:04:54:06 - 00:04:55:17
Speaker 2
Okay, there's the second, Second.
00:04:55:17 - 00:05:22:02
Speaker 1
That's a second kind. And impose shame is shame. That doesn't even belong to us. It belongs to the abusive parent, the negligent parent. It belongs to the bullies in school. It belongs to people who betrayed you, hurt you, abandoned you. But we have a tendency to take it onto ourselves and feel somehow responsible for that. And as children, there's not a whole lot else we can do.
00:05:22:03 - 00:05:40:16
Speaker 1
I mean, a child cannot at four years old, look at an abusive parent and say, you know what? You're really a lousy parent and you're really inadequate at doing this. And I'm just going to pack my little suitcase and move down the street and live with the Joneses. So we can't leave. And so we end up believing there's something wrong with us.
00:05:40:22 - 00:06:14:17
Speaker 1
There's something wrong with me because I have needs. There's something wrong with me because I have feelings. Something's wrong with me, because I have boundaries. And so we start trying to hide those things that really make us human. And so imposed shame is really we can't repent of someone else's shame and we have to give it back. And that's kind of hard because you don't just say to a parent, you know, well, you know, you're drinking really is hurtful to us, you know, because then things just get worse.
00:06:14:17 - 00:06:21:23
Speaker 1
So we stuff things and we we sit with that. So imposed shame is really difficult because it can't be repented of.
00:06:22:04 - 00:06:23:02
Speaker 2
Okay. Hmm.
00:06:23:13 - 00:06:50:02
Speaker 1
The third kind of shame is moral shame. And that's basically sense in is anything that separates us from God and anything that separates us from God ultimately separates us from each other. And so that is that is our stuff. I know when I was growing up with alcoholic parents, you know, I learned a lot of really destructive, self-destructive behaviors.
00:06:50:22 - 00:07:00:04
Speaker 1
And but then it became my sin. You know, them stuff I was doing, choices I was making, you know, that was there. But the blessing is that we have a way back.
00:07:00:06 - 00:07:00:12
Speaker 2
Mm hmm.
00:07:00:23 - 00:07:19:07
Speaker 1
You know, I mean, you go into the courtroom and you tell the judge your stuff and he says you are guilty. You did all of this wrong stuff, and he's getting ready to impose a lifelong sentence of shame on you. And Jesus walks in the back of the courtroom and says, Excuse me, Judge, I'm here to take that shame.
00:07:19:17 - 00:07:21:12
Speaker 1
That person is free to go.
00:07:21:13 - 00:07:21:20
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:07:22:05 - 00:07:46:11
Speaker 1
You know, I mean, that is the gift that we have of being set free by Christ. And I think one of the things that is on my heart to share is how often as a church or as people, we really don't receive that freedom. We think, he said, free to be in parole, free to be on probation. We continue to walk and guilt and shame.
00:07:46:18 - 00:08:08:16
Speaker 1
After all the trouble that Christ went to set us free. And so I want to just say there's a way back. There's a way back to wholeness as a way back to being fully human. There's a way back to accepting both sides of ourself, you know, that we can accommodate the fact of our vulnerability. We can accommodate the fact of our neediness and our limited ness and our feeling emotional state and.
00:08:09:02 - 00:08:10:13
Speaker 1
And still be okay.
00:08:10:23 - 00:08:17:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Which one does the enemy use most often to get at us? Or is it all three?
00:08:17:22 - 00:08:36:05
Speaker 1
I think all three. I think. I think the initial shaming was of our human beingness. The fact of our neediness, the fact of our limited ness, a fact of our emotional volatility. And but I think that's the the one we have to reclaim.
00:08:36:07 - 00:08:36:15
Speaker 2
Okay.
00:08:36:17 - 00:08:37:16
Speaker 1
SB Good.
00:08:37:18 - 00:08:57:12
Speaker 2
Okay. Mm hmm. So that's a shame We're not trying to necessarily recover from or change. That's when we're trying to get back to. Right. The other two, the one where I didn't even do anything wrong. But for some reason I feel shame about something somebody else did, or the one where I did do something wrong. And but I have a savior who's forgiving me and now I can.
00:08:58:07 - 00:09:02:19
Speaker 2
Those two, we we've got some work to do. I've got some work to do.
00:09:03:04 - 00:09:07:13
Speaker 1
What would you say that work is desire. What is something that might resonate with you there?
00:09:07:14 - 00:09:31:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. One thing that as I was sitting in your office last fall, you helped me discover was this imposed shame. The second one you mentioned, I there were some people in my past, in my college years that I felt responsible for. I was I was a natural leader and I was I was leading them. And then I end up making some pretty well one ended up making bad choices.
00:09:31:11 - 00:09:55:05
Speaker 2
The other one just ended up in an unhealthy mental state, probably not even from any bad choices, but both of them, I felt all sorts of shame from I felt guilty and responsible. And I remember sitting in your office and say, talking through both of these situations. And the first one, you said, That's not your fault. That's not you can't be responsible for somebody else's actions.
00:09:55:17 - 00:10:17:21
Speaker 2
And I said, Well, but leaders are supposed to be judged more strictly, and I'm a leader, and so is how have a little bit of that gets this mantra? Isn't there a little bit? That's my guilt. And you said you thought for a second, but said, no way, you are not responsible for somebody else's choices. And that really was liberating.
00:10:17:22 - 00:10:41:22
Speaker 2
I it was interesting that I probably could have told you that, like philosophically or theologically about somebody else, but I needed to look in your eyes and have you look in my eyes and tell me that and kind of give me permission to not feel guilty about something that wasn't my actions and it wasn't my choices. But it did feel like I was.
00:10:41:22 - 00:11:05:13
Speaker 2
I just kept hanging on to it. And so to have that exposed that tool of the enemy, to keep me feeling very heavy. So every time I would think of either of these two people, just this way of dark heaviness would come over me because of the shame that I felt in the imposed. I probably, maybe even self-imposed.
00:11:05:13 - 00:11:08:14
Speaker 2
Is that a thing? Self-imposed shame?
00:11:08:20 - 00:11:12:11
Speaker 1
Well, I think that in a way, shame can be imposed as if we receive it.
00:11:12:16 - 00:11:13:15
Speaker 2
Mm hmm. Okay.
00:11:13:15 - 00:11:30:02
Speaker 1
You know, because many times people will make every attempt to make us responsible for their behavior. You know, I'm angry, but you made me angry. You know? I mean, it's probably one of the more common things you'll hear. You know, it's your fault that I did this because that's what Adam and Eve did in the. I mean, we blame shame shift.
00:11:30:02 - 00:11:57:13
Speaker 1
We seem to have this need to make other people responsible for our behavior, you know, so. But unless you receive that, you don't have to be, you know, have to feel that you are. And so that's a it also you just also pointed to the thing that traps us in shame, which is secrecy and recovery circles. We say you're as sick as the secrets you keep, you know, because it's our secrets and the hidden this that make shame grow.
00:11:57:13 - 00:12:31:15
Speaker 1
Shame cannot live in the light. Yeah, it only can grow in the dark. And so when we begin to put it into the light, it it it gets defeated, you know, Especially if we can look into the eyes of acceptance. I think it's interesting and, and 12 step programs. One of the things that is part of the steps is is that you do a fearless and searching moral inventory of yourself, which is to really look at all of the things you've done wrong and then you confess to God and to one other person the exact nature of your wrongs.
00:12:31:15 - 00:12:52:11
Speaker 1
The reason for that is that when we can tell somebody our worst stuff and they say, is that it? Or they give us their phone number, you know, and then we're like, we're looking into the eyes of acceptance. I just told you how horrible I am, and you're looking at me with acceptance. And that is the first beginning of reconnection and with other humans.
00:12:52:17 - 00:13:11:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. And it's the antidote to shame. It seriously. I remember. And it was also funny in your office, I'm. I like to try to fix it. I want to. I wanted to leave each session with something I could do. And so and in the past has been journaling. I've done a lot of journaling and that's been really healthy for me in a lot of ways.
00:13:12:06 - 00:13:36:22
Speaker 2
Actually. Now I do look back at my journals and see shame all over. This is interesting, but I so I was prepared. I think I even asked you, So what's a journal prompt that I can go home and fix my shame? And you told me that that's not something that I can journal through. There's some awareness that I could like be aware of what shame feels like to you.
00:13:36:22 - 00:13:57:13
Speaker 2
And. But you said that I need the way past shame as people like. Like you just said, somebody you can. So you told me. Think about all the things that you don't want to talk about and find some people that you can talk about them with. And that acceptance is what's going to be your way through the shame.
00:13:57:13 - 00:14:02:04
Speaker 2
And so that was another pretty new thought for you. But it makes so much sense.
00:14:03:00 - 00:14:22:12
Speaker 1
And that's the trap. The trap is you don't want people to see this and you're terrified for them to be known. You're terrified that somebody would either not accept you or, you know, reject your bad and then you put you in jail or something. If they really knew you. And yet there's no way back except for you other people in community.
00:14:22:20 - 00:14:58:13
Speaker 1
I mean, we have to be able to know. And I think the knowledge that we have a God who loves us and knows us already is, is really such an essential part that we're already known and loved. We just have to let other people be there to love us as well. And I've been shocked. I mean, and do and making peace and beyond weekends for the last, you know, almost 40 years, you know, And I remember telling my story and and and I told them, starting with those weekends in some pretty conservative live churches.
00:14:58:23 - 00:15:21:23
Speaker 1
And I would sit there and I would look at all these women that I thought were very not like me, that they were okay, because my life has been such a checkerboard and, you know, I was a I was a teenage pregnancy at 16. My father and I know he loved me. He was an alcoholic. And his whole way of dealing with things that he didn't want to see was to avoid them.
00:15:21:23 - 00:15:43:16
Speaker 1
And so and to deny them. And and so he he said, if I want you to be able to live a normal life, so I'm going to send you 3000 miles away to live with your cousins and you're going to lie about why you're there. And the message to me was a total shaming message, because it said to me, You cannot exist as you are.
00:15:43:16 - 00:15:46:20
Speaker 1
You cannot have your experiences, you cannot have your life, and you have.
00:15:46:20 - 00:15:47:17
Speaker 2
To live in secrecy.
00:15:47:17 - 00:16:05:18
Speaker 1
You've got to live in secrecy. And so I'm sitting here in front of all these people that I think are not like me. And, you know, one of the things I do is in making peace is tell my story, because I truly know and and and accept the freedom that Jesus did give me. So I'm telling my story.
00:16:05:18 - 00:16:16:04
Speaker 1
But I notice and I still, after all these years, when I finish my story, I'll have one second or so where I'm looking around for the hours of judgment.
00:16:16:07 - 00:16:17:05
Speaker 2
Hmm. Hmm hmm hmm.
00:16:17:08 - 00:16:38:02
Speaker 1
You know, and. And I'm like, Why are you still here? I mean, why would you let me be your teacher for the week? I mean, what is that all about? Mm hmm. So it was. It was not. I mean, that was my own moral shame. And I have to really receive forgiveness, you know, in order to be able to be comfortable with having.
00:16:38:02 - 00:16:38:15
Speaker 1
With being.
00:16:38:15 - 00:16:39:13
Speaker 2
Me. Mm hmm.
00:16:40:07 - 00:16:47:23
Speaker 1
You know, and. And not walk in guilt and shame, because shame is the most isolating tool that Satan has to use.
00:16:49:02 - 00:17:18:23
Speaker 2
You're what you said about shame being needy. You need to look in the eyes of somebody else and see the love of God for you, for it. I experienced that in your office. And there's one other mentor in my life that I would say I would leave his meetings with him and he was unlocking for me characteristics of God that I wouldn't have been able to discover on my own, no matter how much I read the Bible about his love and forgiveness and his mercy.
00:17:19:18 - 00:17:46:08
Speaker 2
There's something about another person who believes a little better than you or understands that a little deeper than you may be. That God truly loves and what his grace really actually means to carry that from his heart and pour it out through their acceptance and through their eyes of, I see you, I understand. And I still, like you just said, I still do accept you.
00:17:46:18 - 00:18:19:23
Speaker 2
And so I felt kind of this realization. Again, I've had it several times, I guess, in my Christian walk. But this realization again, that, oh God is better than I thought he was. And I can see it now that I've actually been trying to hold on to some regret or some bad feelings about things I've done in the past to punish myself or to remind, like, maybe if I think about it enough, I'll never do it again or if I keep my head down.
00:18:19:23 - 00:18:47:22
Speaker 2
But you are helping me understand that that's not what God wants for me. He wants freedom for me and He wants when he says I'm forgive and he means it. So to have somebody else look at you in the eye and tell you that really it was fascinating to me to realize there's stuff that I don't know if I could possibly learn about God without people who are further along in the faith and have a deeper understanding of his heart.
00:18:47:22 - 00:18:58:10
Speaker 2
Revealing it to me, even though it's all written right here in the word, I don't understand these words without people mirroring for me what that looks like. So that was revelatory.
00:18:58:12 - 00:19:19:19
Speaker 1
Really, Until we accept ourselves in the natural shame way, until we accept who we are as a human being, that we are truly vulnerable and helpless, that we truly need each other, we need we can't survive on our own until we really accept that it's like we just had. And and in that isolation, it's really dark and it's really lonely, you know?
00:19:19:19 - 00:19:51:22
Speaker 1
And and sometimes I think of it as a really dark room. And as long as we keep the room dark, we don't really see it and we don't really think about it. We've got it all figured out. We're trying to, you know, But if you let light come into that room, then you start seeing the mess. And one of the things that you'll see happen until we accept who we are as a human being, until we accept all of the flaws in the inadequacies that we have, we will not receive love well, because love is light.
00:19:52:07 - 00:20:02:08
Speaker 1
And so when a person tries to love us, we'll still be on guard. And I've known people that have been married for 25 years and I want to introduce them to each other. I mean, they've never met each other.
00:20:02:09 - 00:20:02:14
Speaker 2
Well.
00:20:03:03 - 00:20:24:10
Speaker 1
They don't know about major things that have happened in each other's life. And it's so sad because, you know, they don't really believe that they're loved because they hold back guys in the back room will be same. If they really knew you, they wouldn't care If they really knew you, they wouldn't love you. You know, no one could love you because of who you are.
00:20:24:23 - 00:20:43:19
Speaker 1
You know? And yet when you see that that's not true, that that's a great giant lie. You know that one of the things that I see happen over and over and over again in making peace is a group of strangers come together. And on the first night, they're all sitting there thinking, why did I agree to do this?
00:20:43:19 - 00:21:09:22
Speaker 1
And how can I get out here gracefully, you know, And by Sunday, they're hugging each other and want to exchange phone numbers. And and because they've taken a risk to become vulnerable with each other and they've been received and they received compassion and concern and empathy, and they also get to know they're not alone, somehow. One of the most arrogant things, because pride is the flipside of shame.
00:21:10:05 - 00:21:29:05
Speaker 1
It's all comparisons, like I'm worse than other people or I'm better than other people, which is pride. And it's like all of a sudden they're realizing that I'm neither. I'm just like everybody else, that people are just people. You know, we all have more in common than we don't.
00:21:29:06 - 00:21:29:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, you.
00:21:29:22 - 00:21:30:04
Speaker 1
Know.
00:21:30:05 - 00:21:32:23
Speaker 2
And it's so liberating to realize that. Yeah.
00:21:32:23 - 00:21:55:21
Speaker 1
I mean, it's just like, why would we hide from each other? Yeah, you know, and I'm not alone. And it's prideful to think that we're by ourselves, you know? I mean that we're the only one out of billions and billions of people. And in all of history that ever was as bad as I am, you know, And that it is unforgivable as I know it, as unlovable as I am.
00:21:56:06 - 00:22:04:09
Speaker 1
And it's just not true. I don't care where you've been or what you've done or what's been done to you, there's a way back.
00:22:04:11 - 00:22:04:19
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:22:05:00 - 00:22:23:09
Speaker 1
And I didn't know that I had 12 years of perfect dinners, a Sunday school, and I had no idea that there was a way back. That that's exactly why Jesus came. But God in his mercy, brought people all the way through it. I call my personal missionaries who loved me in spite of myself, but they love me anyway.
00:22:23:13 - 00:22:52:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, and I think it helped me to understand what that's all about, you know, is that our job is to love each other and give each other safe place so that they can work out their issues with God, not with us. So, Josiah, as you think about shame in yourself, what are some of the things you found in yourself that indicate you're feeling ashamed, or what are some of the things that you may have seen in some of the people that you work with in your ministry?
00:22:52:19 - 00:23:16:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. So as since we talked about it in the fall, I started to notice shame in my life. And so I would notice as I started to try to think about physically when I feel ashamed, what does it feel like? What in my body can I sense shame? And it's like my shoulders, like I can feel as I can't even imagine it now and maybe even feel it now.
00:23:16:11 - 00:23:47:01
Speaker 2
I'm feeling a little nervous about it, but just so I can feel like some weight on my shoulders, it's like, yeah, that's part of the best way to describe it. Weight and kind of like creeps into my. It feels like it pulls me in. I pulled my head down and my arms and and makes me want to crumple up within about in one time I was journaling about it and I noticed I had just written about something that felt like it was bringing that feeling back up.
00:23:47:01 - 00:24:08:12
Speaker 2
And without thinking about it, I had I was covering my face while I was thinking, but my both hands were over my face, just like the emoji it was I was encapsulating like the shame emoji. So as Vacinal, I didn't know I actually did, you know, you know that that's what same looks like on the emoji. But like, I'm actually head down covering my eyes and face.
00:24:09:10 - 00:24:35:18
Speaker 2
So that was interesting. I wouldn't do that in public. I guess I've learned that, you know, you, you temper it in public, but and when I was just totally letting myself feel that I was just intrigued by that, that that was a physical manifestation of what shame feels like in conversation. Definitely. I could feel myself avert eye contact, especially if there's something that brings up something shameful.
00:24:36:20 - 00:24:55:10
Speaker 2
I probably get fidgety. But yeah, mostly like I want to disappear. So if I can, if I'm looking away from you, then I don't feel like we're we're both connect. I don't know what it is, but you have a avoiding eye contact and that kind of thing. I've definitely seen that with people I work with. I work with young adults.
00:24:55:10 - 00:25:21:20
Speaker 2
I'm a pastor here and the young adults I've worked with have also noticed I avoiding eye contact is pretty normal or avoiding you altogether and never coming back. Or you can. If somebody is pretty consistent and you know that there is a struggle in their life and then they disappear for a while, it's a pretty good chance that if I call them, they're going to if you call them, actually, they probably want to be found.
00:25:21:20 - 00:25:40:06
Speaker 2
It seems like people do want to be found. So if I reach out and find them, they're willing to come in and tell me everything. But they weren't making the initiative to. Their reaction was like, Let me get out of there. So maybe you're not even conscious. Maybe they found everything else to do on the night where we normally me or.
00:25:41:02 - 00:25:53:16
Speaker 2
But yeah, so avoidance, whether it's in the moment, eye contact avoidance or avoidance, like let me actually hightail it out of here and not come back in time. Found is that I've seen both of those for sure.
00:25:54:12 - 00:26:13:15
Speaker 1
Yeah it, it does it takes you know the avoidance of people places and things that bring up those feelings of shame is, is almost inevitable. And the avoidance of eye contact is probably the most common thing you'll see. I have clients that come to the office and I feel like I got to go over here, too. But did you say, you know, look at me?
00:26:13:23 - 00:26:25:08
Speaker 1
You know, I mean, it's like you want to see 60 to 80% of eye contact, you know, and any more than that, they're probably just not there at all. Just being looking at you.
00:26:25:15 - 00:26:28:07
Speaker 2
It gets trivial that way. You need it.
00:26:28:18 - 00:26:53:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. When you were talking about, you know, not showing up and not coming back but wanting to be found, I think that is something that we really do seek. We want to be found. When I was a little girl in life, we get really bad at my house, but I developed a habit of going and reading in my grandmother's magnolia tree, and there were some branches that were kind of like lawn chair, and I would just take a book up there and hide.
00:26:53:09 - 00:27:26:20
Speaker 1
But I really wanted somebody to come and find me. And they didn't, you know, And eventually I had to get down. And in that, nobody coming to find me, it almost compounded the shame. See, you really aren't important. You really are insignificant. Nobody even noticed that you were not here. Yeah, And and I think that that that is something that, you know, most people, as I will say, every person wants to be seen, wants to be heard.
00:27:26:21 - 00:27:27:04
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:27:27:11 - 00:27:41:00
Speaker 1
You know, so if we can help people to feel safe to come out of hiding. Yeah. Then you know, to come back then I think we are representing what God, what Christ wants us to represent.
00:27:41:02 - 00:28:09:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's fascinating, because at the beginning of the podcast, you said that shame is this fear of being no, and we're trying not to be known. But also there's something deep inside of us that longs to be known and seen and understood it. And, and I think it's because it's dangerous, because when we're if we're not known, then we can kind of either just be like anonymous nobody or even.
00:28:09:14 - 00:28:29:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, but if we, if we start to be known, then either we're rejected or we're accepted because once they see us, then they have the opportunity to either reject you or accept you. If you're not known, they can if whether or not they accept you is not nearly as painful because they're not really seeing the real me anyways.
00:28:29:13 - 00:28:52:10
Speaker 2
But as soon as you put that real self out there, then rejection is possible because now they actually see something that is the real me. And so but so there's kind of two sides of that spectrum because rejection would be the most painful thing you can feel if you're really known and then rejected. But if you're really known and then accepted in that moment, that's what love is.
00:28:52:10 - 00:29:20:10
Speaker 2
That's probably the definition of love to be known and then received and accepted or invited. So it's high stakes. As soon as you're willing to be known at the stakes are really high. And so that craving for love that we all have is tied to this need to be known. And we're not. If we are always avoiding relationship or avoiding sharing the vulnerable things or avoiding being seen, then maybe a little safer.
00:29:20:10 - 00:29:23:23
Speaker 2
But it's not going to be fulfilling and we're not going to find the love that we all need.
00:29:23:23 - 00:29:46:16
Speaker 1
So it leaves that hole in us just very empty because we were never created to be by ourselves. Yeah, I mean, we were never created to be alone. And I think one of the most common survival beliefs that we develop on survival lies that we develop is I don't need anybody amid dependent. Yeah, you know, we've got down to the one man army at one point, you know, and I don't want a one man army in my life.
00:29:46:23 - 00:29:47:09
Speaker 2
You know.
00:29:47:09 - 00:29:54:23
Speaker 1
It's like that is is such a shame based understanding. I mean, you know, and the big thing is fear.
00:29:55:17 - 00:29:56:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:29:56:02 - 00:30:14:08
Speaker 1
I worked with a client not long ago and she was like, I'm just angry and I'm not giving up my anger, you know? And there's been a lot of abuse in the past. And and, you know, when we got right down to it, it wasn't anger at all. It was fear. Interesting, because fear and anger feel so much alike in the beginning of them.
00:30:14:08 - 00:30:27:06
Speaker 1
They both click on okay, you know, but it's easier to be mad than it is to be scared. And so we see a whole world of angry people because they're scared.
00:30:28:00 - 00:30:28:07
Speaker 2
Now.
00:30:29:00 - 00:30:48:18
Speaker 1
And they don't know what to do. They don't know the way back. Yeah, but one person who looks into your eyes with the eyes of acceptance is incredibly wonderful. I mean, you think about it like that when you know, like when your kids look at you and they're so adoring, it's like, Oh.
00:30:49:23 - 00:31:17:23
Speaker 2
It's the truth. Yeah. As an artist, I've felt that as a creative person, I've felt probably some of that real intense vulnerability that comes with being known when it comes to sharing something I've created, whether it's a poem I've written or something that has really, truly come from the heart, a song I've written, there's I can I can definitely feel the all the things that shame does.
00:31:17:23 - 00:31:45:13
Speaker 2
The avoidance of like if I've got something to share, it's like it's courage to share it with somebody or not. And the courage is tied to this idea that if they see it, they have the power to reject me or accept me in that moment, because what they're seeing is a part of something deep down inside of me that I spent hours and emotions and into creating.
00:31:45:20 - 00:32:17:07
Speaker 2
And if it's even if it's like, Oh, that was cool and kind of brushed off, it wasn't met with acceptance that I really probably needed in that moment of, No, I'm baring my soul here and if it's just okay, then that feels like rejection. So as an artistic person, it's day. It feels dangerous. And I think probably there's probably a lot more artistic people out there that are hiding and aren't willing to express that because at some point in their childhood or beyond, they were shut down in that area and they felt that rejection once.
00:32:17:07 - 00:32:21:10
Speaker 2
And I'm not going to try that again. And then those skills don't get honed.
00:32:21:13 - 00:32:49:07
Speaker 1
But yeah, it's really sad. You just hit on the other thing that the shame does. It isolates us from each other. But the other thing it does is it prevents us from using the gifts that God gave us, you know, because you're right. I mean, if you're a child and you draw a picture and somebody laughs at it, you know, or somebody says, that's terrible, you know, then you're probably not going to show that picture to anybody else, you know?
00:32:49:07 - 00:33:22:01
Speaker 1
And God gave us gifts to give and to show just to celebrate each other the different things we can do. And when our gifts are shamed, then they go. And so who knows how many poems haven't been shared or songs haven't been shared or Yeah, pictures haven't been drawn or, you know, just things we haven't done because we were afraid somebody would say something.
00:33:22:02 - 00:33:22:10
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:33:22:22 - 00:33:28:11
Speaker 1
And we don't do what God gave us to give to each other.
00:33:28:13 - 00:33:43:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, that could go with any dream somebody has or any dream is an integral part of his art or not, or businesses that haven't been started or the medical breakthroughs that haven't been found because people crushed them early on. The dream. Yeah.
00:33:43:19 - 00:34:05:17
Speaker 1
And we'd rather be guilty than ashamed. I remember one time we had I was working in the mountains of North Carolina. We we found a boy who had been grown up in the woods and he had never been to school and he was a big kid. He was in the eighth grade and he was put into the eighth grade and and he broke every rule.
00:34:05:17 - 00:34:20:14
Speaker 1
There was I mean, he was just terrible. And but the bottom line was he would rather break the rule to be guilty of breaking the rules than for you to see that he could not read and write.
00:34:20:15 - 00:34:21:19
Speaker 2
Hmm. Interesting.
00:34:22:01 - 00:34:46:01
Speaker 1
And so and we often do that we'd rather be guilty and do something wrong, then be inadequate and do something wrong. So you'll find people taken. And that's one of the sources of taken responsibilities. If I'm guilty, I did it wrong. So if I do it differently, whatever happened will never happen again or whatever happened, will you know I can change it.
00:34:46:01 - 00:34:53:16
Speaker 1
But if I am something wrong, I can't change it. And so that's one of the things that really blocks people.
00:34:53:19 - 00:34:54:00
Speaker 2
Who.
00:34:54:05 - 00:35:15:12
Speaker 1
You know, to from from just allowing themselves because we want to maintain that sense, that illusion of power and control, that I could do it different. I really could do it different if I really wanted to. You know, And that's a very common white interest, is I could I could I could do this. And then we don't try to do it because we don't want to.
00:35:15:12 - 00:35:36:22
Speaker 1
We know in our heart we couldn't do it like, I can't fly a plane and I can sit there and pretend I could fly a plane and I could think I could do it if I wanted to. But don't put me in the cockpit, you know, I mean, it's like, yeah, I really can't do that. So, I mean, that's kind of the way a lot of people live life is avoiding doing things or learning to do things.
00:35:36:22 - 00:36:07:15
Speaker 1
And that's the other thing. If you don't learn the learning curve of learning, hmm, You know, I can envision playing a guitar like you do, but when I pick it up, I can envision, you know, playing for other people and singing and doing that. But it but if I pick it up, I'm going to go plant plant because I, I don't I haven't learned I haven't really done my my part or God may have given me a gift, but it still has to be learned.
00:36:07:16 - 00:36:08:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:36:08:09 - 00:36:11:12
Speaker 1
Yeah you still have to practice is an interactive process.
00:36:11:13 - 00:36:11:22
Speaker 2
Hmm.
00:36:12:13 - 00:36:28:11
Speaker 1
Speaking of which, yeah, you wrote a song about shame after some of the stuff that we talked about, and I thought it might be a good way to end this whole podcast by letting you share that song with the people that are listening.
00:36:29:00 - 00:36:37:10
Speaker 2
Sure. I just told you how scary that is, though. You did. I know this is good. This is really good.
00:36:37:17 - 00:36:51:03
Speaker 1
And and one of the things that I think we always have to remember is the 20 6020 rule, 20% of the people who hear this song are not going to like it. 60% aren't going to even listen. And then there's going to be 20% who got a really.
00:36:51:03 - 00:36:57:08
Speaker 2
Really sincere from that.
00:36:57:19 - 00:37:12:12
Speaker 1
It's good that they ignored. I love your gift and I love the way you love people. And I think we're very, very blessed to have you with our young adult ministry. And I watch how the kids are flourishing and they're because of you.
00:37:12:12 - 00:37:13:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, the things you.
00:37:13:23 - 00:37:28:08
Speaker 1
Do walk in vulnerability and that does take courage. Before we go to play in your song, I want to know if there's anything you'd like to say about what you felt writing the song, what the song says, and just why you wrote it.
00:37:28:12 - 00:37:48:23
Speaker 2
Yeah, So I really I went home right after a session in your office about, I think it was the one where you said, No, you're not guilty for something somebody else has done. That's that's not yours to hold on to. And I saw this glimpse of God's love and his desire for me to be free from this and that.
00:37:48:23 - 00:38:09:02
Speaker 2
I've had a misconception about him in a way. And so I went home and I wrote this. I had this idea probably in the car on the way home that he's better than I ever thought he was. And so that was the that's the main idea of the song, that God's better than I thought he was. He's better than I allowed him to be in my imagination of who he is.
00:38:09:14 - 00:38:29:10
Speaker 2
And and so, yeah, it starts off with I set out forge myself a name like I was trying with self-reflection and self-definition. I was going to make a name for myself and realized there was a half as good as what he called me when he passed us the wine and broke the bread and said, I'm willing to actually die for you.
00:38:29:10 - 00:38:40:23
Speaker 2
And so that's the concept that he's better than we thought and that what I if I try to build a name for myself, it's not actually going to be near as good as what he wants to call me. So yeah.
00:38:41:00 - 00:38:47:23
Speaker 1
We can't create an image of ourselves as better than the image that he created us to be, which is in his image. All right.
00:38:48:00 - 00:39:03:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. Here it is.
