Making Peace & Beyond Podcast

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:21:11
Speaker 1
Have you ever wondered how to make sense out of your messy life? Or how to live in peace in the middle of a stressful world? My name is Jamie Norton, and I want to welcome you to the Making Peace and Beyond podcast, where we talk about life struggles and how to live in the peace, joy and freedom that Christ died to give us today.

00:00:21:13 - 00:00:38:12
Speaker 1
I'm really excited to have our guest, Heather Palace, and Heather and I have a couple of things in common. One is we're both counselors and we think counselors for a long time. And the other is we're both in recovery. And so today we want to just really talk about more about the program of recovery and what that looks like.

00:00:38:12 - 00:00:43:10
Speaker 1
So, Heather, welcome aboard. You want to tell us a little bit about yourself before we get started?

00:00:43:10 - 00:01:03:18
Speaker 2
Yes. Thank you so much for inviting me. Again, my name is Heather Paulsen. I am a counselor. I've worked in the field of addiction and mental health for the last 20 years, and I'm grateful to say I've been sober for the last 20 years and I've had the privilege of being a part of different recovery groups throughout those 20 years.

00:01:03:20 - 00:01:34:15
Speaker 2
I first met Jamie in 2003. She was the first person to invite me to a recovery group and to really show me what recovery is about and how to use recovery to overcome something that really had quite a grip on my life. So it's a pleasure to be here. And of course, it's thinking about 20 years ago meeting Jamie for the first time.

00:01:34:17 - 00:02:03:04
Speaker 2
I would never have dreamed sitting here today talking like this on camera. First time for me. Camera. So I'm adjusting to that. But yeah, what an amazing journey the last 20 years have been for me. So it's a little bit full circle sitting here talking with you. And I'm very grateful that you asked me. And for all the things I've learned about recovery from you.

00:02:03:06 - 00:02:33:21
Speaker 1
You know, it's it's been fun watching and sharing that walk with you. And actually we add and we do share. Well, now we do together. Everybody that is not slick and snowy out there, but it's I think what I would had hoped to do today and do hope to do today is to really unpack what recovery is, because it's so such a little known process in many ways, although there are hundreds and thousands of people who are in recovery, it's like almost as a subculture of people.

00:02:33:23 - 00:02:54:08
Speaker 1
But it I remember when I first came into recovery, my own recovery 44 years ago, I had no idea. First of all, I had no idea what was wrong with me. I grew up in an alcoholic family. Both of my parents died of alcoholism and I was lost in my own addiction. And actually married to a psychiatrist at the time and working in mental health.

00:02:54:08 - 00:03:21:16
Speaker 1
So it was very just very enlightening to know that there was a way back because I was so lost. I had no idea there was a way back and I think the recovery program offers not just a little bit of healing with a glass ceiling, it offers a full restoration process, and it brought me back to Jesus and back to Christ centered recovery.

00:03:21:18 - 00:03:50:12
Speaker 1
But I thought it would be a good idea to unpack that process and really look at the 12 steps. A program of Alcoholics Anonymous, which began the recovery movement, was created in 1935 and has was pretty much hidden and in dark rooms. I remember when I got into recovery, the first meeting that I went to was up these dark stairs in this dark room with these there's this room full of men.

00:03:50:12 - 00:04:17:02
Speaker 1
There were no women. Very few women came in to recovery at that time because there was such a stigma and there was such a shame base of being a person who had addiction issues. And I remember thinking, if this is what it takes to recovery, I'm not sure I want to do it. But over the years have really learned to appreciate the 12 step and the whole process this created.

00:04:17:02 - 00:04:42:22
Speaker 1
Because now what we were finding out in mental health circles and in church circles, that that process is essential for full healing. And so I wanted to just run over the steps and I thought maybe if you wanted to take one and I'll take what it will show you that breaking it down business. So absolutely. You know, you would you like to start with step one?

00:04:42:23 - 00:04:54:16
Speaker 2
Sure. So step one says, we admitted we were powerless over. You can fill in the blank. Alcohol, drugs, whatever the addiction. We admitted we were powerless over our addiction and that our lives had become unmanageable.

00:04:54:18 - 00:04:58:15
Speaker 1
So go ahead and say a little more about that.

00:04:58:17 - 00:05:26:04
Speaker 2
So I can speak from my own experience and the meeting many people over the years I've heard a lot of comments on step one, the the two main concepts being powerlessness in on manageability. And I know for myself what I can say is I felt very powerless when I was in my addiction. I've I had started going to church about a year and a half before I got sober, and that completely changed my life.

00:05:26:04 - 00:05:58:07
Speaker 2
I gave my life to Christ, and I really was trying to live a new kind of life. But the addiction had really a grip on me, and I don't think I understood what I understood and what I understand now with just how serious addiction can be. And I didn't realize what I needed to get. Well, and that's that powerless feeling of I actually don't want to be doing what I'm doing, but I'm still doing it.

00:05:58:09 - 00:06:31:05
Speaker 2
I could just remember weekends of saying, I'm not going to do that this weekend. And I was very committed and I would pray and I'd be reading my Bible and doing all these right things. And yet I would find myself by the end of the week and drinking and trying to go to church and repenting. And it was just this vicious cycle, so powerless for me reminds me of that time of being in this position, of wanting very much to get rid of something in my life and feeling like I didn't have the power to do it.

00:06:31:06 - 00:06:58:03
Speaker 2
And my life was definitely unmanageable because anybody who's experienced addiction, whether it's yours or someone around you, sees the affect of what happens from addiction. It takes away our ability to manage our emotions, to manage our relationships, to be able to function day to day. So looking at step one, I think I felt those things before I got into recovery.

00:06:58:03 - 00:07:25:08
Speaker 2
I felt the powerlessness and the unmanaged ability of my life. It was that I did not know what to do about it. And so step one is thankfully not the only step, but it's a necessary step because if I hadn't really recognized those things in my life, I would probably not have been desperate enough to go do what I needed to do to get well.

00:07:25:09 - 00:07:49:04
Speaker 1
Always heard that Discovery is the first step in recovery, and it really is. And what we know is that when you try to control what you cannot control, it begins to control you and it becomes a preoccupation and it becomes an increasing sense of helplessness. And interestingly enough, scripturally is described perfectly in Romans chapter seven. I do what I don't want to do.

00:07:49:04 - 00:08:05:08
Speaker 1
I don't do what I should. And there's no hope for me. Which brings us to step two, which is I came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity. And I think in that step, we have to admit that we're not saying, you know, we have to admit that we are out of control.

00:08:05:10 - 00:08:35:20
Speaker 1
And there is a shame to that. That makes it very hard to share it, to say we have become increasingly isolated and and and self-centered in that process. But the somebody said, first we come and then we come to. And I think that is that is true to realize I can't. And the only hope I have is to seek something that can help me.

00:08:35:22 - 00:09:22:19
Speaker 1
And I think the sentence I need help is probably the most difficult sentence in the English language or in any language, because we don't want to admit our vulnerability. We don't want to admit how helpless we really are. I think sometimes about the cross, and I think Jesus showed us total vulnerability on the cross. I mean, and and I mean, he was he was beaten and and naked and fully displayed and that sense of vulnerability, I think, is saying, you know, or complete vulnerability is necessary for resurrection.

00:09:22:19 - 00:09:44:07
Speaker 1
We have to allow ourselves to share our vulnerability and to realize we're not perfect, We're not okay, you know, and we don't even know why we're not. Okay, but we're not okay. And so step two is is just really believing. I have to reach out. I don't have any choice. Absolutely. Which goes into step three.

00:09:44:09 - 00:10:06:06
Speaker 2
Step three, we made a decision to turn our will in our lives over to the care of God in a sense, as we understood him. Yes. And I was just thinking, as you were talking all throughout the steps, is this idea of we we admitted we you know, we came came to believe that we can recognize what's going on sometimes.

00:10:06:06 - 00:10:34:03
Speaker 2
But when we get around other people and who have the same struggle, I think that was the eye opener for me was meeting somebody else in recovery. And that that helped me with these first few steps and really cementing that and so coming to see the problem, coming to see that God can restore me to sanity and then making a decision to turn our in our lives over to the care of God.

00:10:34:05 - 00:11:01:17
Speaker 2
That's an interesting step because I will it's sometimes it's confusing because I remember coming to church and making a decision to turn my life over to God, and I got baptized. I invited a bunch of my drinking friends to my baptism, which was really interesting in my family. Some of my family who have been praying for me for years came to this baptism and were just praising God that, you know, these things were happening.

00:11:01:19 - 00:11:23:13
Speaker 2
And so I did that in a sense of asking Christ into my life. And then in recovery, it went a little deeper where I started to make a decision to turn over things to God that had been in my life for a long time that I started to see were getting in the way of me being able to be who he wanted me to be.

00:11:23:15 - 00:11:44:03
Speaker 2
And I think that that's a big part of it, is it's an ongoing process. We're always in a position of seeing things that get in the way and turning them over and being willing to surrender them. And that's why the steps are always being worked on because you don't ever complete these things. Yeah, yeah.

00:11:44:08 - 00:12:02:10
Speaker 1
We're never fully restored until he beams us up. Yeah, Yeah. I say step three is like, you know, you get a car to go to California, but you're not in California. Yeah, I think. I think step three, that is a decision If I can make a decision to go to California, but it doesn't get me there, you know, I have to do something different.

00:12:02:10 - 00:12:32:18
Speaker 1
I have to turn things over and and say, step three gives us the willingness to go to step four, which is in so many ways the step. Yes, I think we that whether it's two places that I think that Christ centered recovery is better than a recovery or church alone. Because what happens in church very often as we go one, two, three, well, you know, we go, one, two, three.

00:12:32:18 - 00:12:55:07
Speaker 1
I did make a decision. I realized I needed Christ. I turn my decision over and then we jump to 12. I want to tell everybody else. And what that ends up being is we're not really healed. We become more legalistic and often use the Bible as a weapon to talk to others because we literally switch from one addiction to another.

00:12:55:07 - 00:13:23:17
Speaker 1
We switch from whatever it was we were doing before to to religion and and we never really heal. And what the problem in the 12 steps is, is if if step three is the God of my understanding, then we have no outside source of forgiveness. And one of the things that we have to have in order to fully recover is an outside source of forgiveness.

00:13:23:19 - 00:13:46:15
Speaker 1
And so putting Jesus has got to the third step, really completes the process of discipleship and healing when you walk the steps. And so step four is the step that everybody sort of fears. And it's like you better get, you know, be careful, because step four says, I did a searching and fearless moral inventory of myself. In other words, I look at myself fully in the mirror.

00:13:46:17 - 00:14:10:21
Speaker 1
I write down all of the things that I've done to hurt myself and others. And, you know, and that's a scary thing because as we do that, then we really discover, you know, we are really messy, you know? And I think of it sometimes as I lived in a dark room and I couldn't see what was messy in there.

00:14:10:21 - 00:14:37:22
Speaker 1
I couldn't see the mess and the junk. And then when I invite Christ into my life, it's a light. It's the light of love. And he enters that room. But as his light enters that room, it's just really messy. And then I see that mess for the first time. I really get out of my denial. I start living the life that I've been living and I begin to really see how sick I truly am.

00:14:38:00 - 00:15:04:04
Speaker 1
And and and sometimes it feels easier to just turn the light back out and and not go there because it's a lot of work. It's a it's a change of of lifestyle. But I have to clean the room up first and really looking at that. And so step four is about getting honest. Somebody said a synonym for addiction is lie.

00:15:04:06 - 00:15:34:01
Speaker 1
So it's it's a you know, and the other word is more now but but we live in a a self justified rationalization blaming others not really being aware of ourselves and certainly not wanting to to stop doing what we're doing, because the belief has been, you know, that it's helping us somehow that is giving us relief and actually is causing the problem.

00:15:34:01 - 00:15:55:06
Speaker 1
And, you know, the Chinese had us saying was that first the man takes a drink and then the drink takes a drink and then the drink takes the man. And you don't know when that process is happening, you know, and so when we get to step four, where we're looking at, oh, my goodness, look at the road, I have walked out and look at the damage I've left along the way.

00:15:55:06 - 00:16:01:22
Speaker 1
So step four is, is that inventory? And then we get to step five.

00:16:02:00 - 00:16:25:14
Speaker 2
Step five is that we share the exact nature of our wrongs with our self, another person and God. And so we become ready to take the work we did in step four, where we took the time to really look at what's underneath my addiction, what's all these other things. I've never dealt with how they hurt other people, how I hurt myself.

00:16:25:16 - 00:16:49:03
Speaker 2
We take all of those and we share them with somebody else. And step five is becoming, you know, ready to do that and to, like you use the word light a lot. And I think that's why it's kind of expose what's there, share that, open that up. You know, they talk a lot about addiction being one of those things that produces a lot of shame in people.

00:16:49:05 - 00:17:08:11
Speaker 2
And anyone who's ever struggled with addiction knows knows what that's like feeling ashamed of what has happened. And I think that the cure for shame is exposing it. And so step five is about exposing things that we've never really shared with someone else before.

00:17:08:13 - 00:17:28:09
Speaker 1
It really you know, it's it's it took me a while to realize that that we really need to share it with another human being. A lot of times people will say, Well, God, I'm working that out. Well, you know, God gives us the body of Christ to work out things with and to be but to be truthful with.

00:17:28:09 - 00:17:54:07
Speaker 1
But shame isolates us so much. And when we confess to another person the exact nature of our wrongs then look into the eyes of acceptance. That is a reconnecting. That's everybody. Like maybe there is hope for me. Maybe I can have relationships. I'm looking at you and you're giving me your phone number and I just told you my more stuff, you know, and and you're inviting me back.

00:17:54:09 - 00:18:14:18
Speaker 1
You know, you're not running out of the room screaming like I thought you would. And and so it leads you to. To really feeling like maybe there is a way back. And in step six, I become willing to let go of some of those things. And that's when I when I first got into recovery, I thought, wow, I see a purpose for step six.

00:18:14:18 - 00:18:33:11
Speaker 1
Of course I'm willing to let go of them. I've been struggling with them forever, but that I had a client come in one time and he said he was just very, very anxious and he said, I don't exist. What do you talk about? He said, I'm doing sticks. Step six and if I give up my character defects, I won't exist.

00:18:33:13 - 00:19:02:01
Speaker 1
And I think sometimes that is it's like, am I really ready to give up my greed, my pride, You know, my, my, my softness, my, my lying, my all of the things that I've thought were helping me to get by our things that I thought I was enjoying. And I really were ready to give those up. And I think step six brings to that question to the forefront and to step seven, where we.

00:19:02:03 - 00:19:35:16
Speaker 2
We humbly ask God to remove these shortcomings from our life. Humbly, humility is probably the key word is really recognizing that not that I'm less than what I am, but the truth about who I am or what I've become or what's happened. And so with humility, we go to God and ask Him. We know he is the only one who can remove these things, that we can see them, We can acknowledge on, but we don't have the power on our own to get rid of them.

00:19:35:18 - 00:19:53:11
Speaker 1
And we really know that, you know, he will give us what we need. I mean, he does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. That's one of the phrases is this In the promises of recovery that I really love, you know, God does for us what we cannot do for ourselves. He's the savior. We're not. He's the one who transforms us.

00:19:53:11 - 00:20:25:02
Speaker 1
And so, you know, he can do for us and restore us to sanity. He can restore us to humanity. And and then we get to okay, that takes care of me and God. Now I got to talk about relationships, you know? So I go and I make a a list of all the persons I have harmed and become willing to make amends to them, which is really scary because in addiction, we have this no talk rule.

00:20:25:04 - 00:20:59:15
Speaker 1
And and so we don't talk about our addiction. And when anybody else tries to talk about it, we don't we get mad or we leave or we do whatever. But certainly we're not going to own our behavior and ask forgiveness. You know, that's a flawed concept. And so we we make a list of all those people, and that's almost always a shocking list because we don't really realize how we have hurt people, you know, how we have betrayed people, abandoned people, lied to people, manipulated and conned.

00:20:59:15 - 00:21:21:23
Speaker 1
You can't even be a good addict if you don't know how to con people. And so there's just I mean, you got to do the most crazy things to people and get them to still be there, you know? So so we're really good at that. So going back and owning those things is something that is a part of reconnecting in relationships and helping relationships heal.

00:21:22:01 - 00:21:52:10
Speaker 1
And it has to be not I'm going to ask you to forgive me and then I'm going to explain, you know, what I did. You don't get any whys. You don't get any you don't get any thing that says, I'm going to just mention this a little bit and make it less than me. Hurt knew. And the worst thing you can do is say, please, you know, please forgive me for doing this, but you, you know, but you made me do it, which is our addict way of thinking, you know?

00:21:52:12 - 00:22:03:18
Speaker 1
But just to make a list of the people that we've harmed and then we become willing to make amends to them all. And step eight. Step nine. Yep.

00:22:03:18 - 00:22:36:23
Speaker 2
So in step nine, we move on to making direct amends. Unless to do so would be harmful to someone else. And so with there's a lot of different situations that people have to work through as far as making amends, this is where the community is very helpful to having people to talk things through with because what like you said, what we don't want to do is re harm someone by going to them and making amends in a way that actually makes it worse.

00:22:37:01 - 00:23:02:23
Speaker 2
And so I know for me, when I actually got to this place, which was quite a process, it didn't happen. It happened over time. I've been talking to people about how to directly go to someone, how do I own my own part and not get into all these other things? Is there any situations where it wouldn't make sense for me to directly go to somebody because that wouldn't make things worse than what they already are.

00:23:03:01 - 00:23:32:11
Speaker 2
So it it's an opportunity to clean up what, you know, my behavior has done. I looking back and I don't know if I've always done that well, working the steps has been something that's kind of put brings it to the forefront of the mind of when, you know, you hurt someone, you know the right thing to do is to go to them, to not ignore it or ignore them or pretend it didn't happen.

00:23:32:13 - 00:23:44:01
Speaker 2
So it's an opportunity to take responsible Lety and to go to someone and to really own our part. My part of what I did.

00:23:44:03 - 00:24:14:22
Speaker 1
Doesn't mean they're going to forgive you. Yeah, it just means you're going to give that option. And. And then we go to step ten, which is the maintenance step now, where we're good with ourselves, we're good with God, we're good with others. And then we have to learn to maintain that wall, which is hard. And because we're going to start feeling better, we're going to start and then we're going to go back and believe, well, maybe I maybe it wasn't as unmanageable as I thought, or maybe it is manageable now.

00:24:14:22 - 00:24:38:23
Speaker 1
So if we don't go to step ten, then we tend to start to slide, which is doing a daily inventory of ourselves and and and to when we're wrong, promptly admit it. So so we're keeping up to date, we're keeping the house clean, we're doing our daily chores and we're doing devotions and we're doing readings and we're going to meetings and we're talking.

00:24:38:23 - 00:25:07:18
Speaker 1
I want to talk a little bit about the surrounding things of of the steps and why they're so important. But we're doing those things that we need to do to keep our life on track. And and those are those are so very important, not just not just to stop. Okay, now I'm recovered, but it's like I have to maintain by a routine of living and and it's a good routine.

00:25:07:21 - 00:25:35:08
Speaker 1
I know when I first got into recovery, I was like, why me? And and, you know, I mean and, you know, I hear people say of a grateful recovering alcoholic. And I would say, you know, what is wrong with you? You know, what are you talking about? And then I came to realize that I had grown up in some relief, chaotic situations and and to have the opportunity to get out of those situations.

00:25:35:10 - 00:25:53:05
Speaker 1
And if I had not had to if I had not gotten to the point where I had to surrender and I had to seek help, I probably wouldn't have circled that darkness for a long time, if not forever, which a lot of people do. I mean, a lot of people have a black hole inside they afraid they're going to fall into.

00:25:53:07 - 00:26:13:00
Speaker 1
And and it's but, you know, the you know, the 10th step allows me to live the program. And that's what we're doing. We're not we're not doing it separate from our lives. We're incorporating our recovery into everyday life. And step 11.

00:26:13:02 - 00:26:48:22
Speaker 2
This is a big one for allow paraphrase. So step 11 is seeking out God's will in our life every day, improving our conscious contact with God and really like developing and growing spiritually each day, making that a priority every day to grow more and more into God's will for us. And so it's continuing to take care of that spiritual, that relationship with God, that that's the priority and seeking only his well, which is almost impossible.

00:26:49:00 - 00:27:05:20
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Yeah. And so it's really getting good and coming back to like the number one priority of all of this power comes from God. And it's all about how he wants to work into our lives and really seeking that out.

00:27:05:20 - 00:27:30:05
Speaker 1
Each day is walking prayerfully and and really realizing that you know, praying for his will for us and the strength to carry that out. But I do believe that God does not send us where he does not equip us to go. You know, that he gives us manna for every moment. And even if we can't see, that journey is going to look like, you know, we just have to show up.

00:27:30:07 - 00:28:00:04
Speaker 1
I mean, so much of recovery is about showing up. So much of life is about showing up. I mean, showing up and and trusting, showing up and trusting, you know, trusting in showing up. And and, you know, step 12 is is so important because the assignment they scripturally and in 12 steps is having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps that we carried the message to those who are still suffering.

00:28:00:06 - 00:28:25:14
Speaker 1
And so it's about reaching out. It's about it's about going out. And, you know, we call it, you know, making disciples, helping people to know I didn't know there was a way back. And when I really understood recovery and the power of what was wrong with me to kill me, you know, you know, I wanted to help other people find out there is a way back.

00:28:25:14 - 00:28:46:04
Speaker 1
I don't care where you've been or what you've done or what's been done to you, There's a way back and, you know, in recovery circles, we say you can't keep it unless you give it away. I mean, it's it's the A helping other people. Somebody described it was is we all in a river drowning And some of us get out to the bank and we want to reach in there and pull others out.

00:28:46:04 - 00:29:13:20
Speaker 1
You know, we want to help others find a way. And the beautiful thing you know, having been in recovery as long as I have is is you you know, I mean, I met you in a different place and watched you grow and watched you get to step 12 and watched you give it away. And it's like you it just strengthens and it just gives you a warm feeling of of of yeah, you know, we're in something together.

00:29:13:22 - 00:29:42:11
Speaker 1
You know, we're in something that we can pass on, you know, and, and, and that is just so incredible. So to me, if we get down to what the steps are about, they are so powerful. But every single one of them is necessary for full restoration. And that is that is the gift of recovery that is there. The other thing I wanted to mention is the things surrounding recovery.

00:29:42:11 - 00:30:15:19
Speaker 1
I mean, some of the knowledge about what what we need that we always say you can't do it alone. You know, you have to stay in community and not just a community where you're going to go talk about intellectual things or or talk about how about those? BROWN You know, I mean, when you know, that's not going to cut it, you have to have people around you where you can just be you, where you can not be okay on days, where you can be scared, where you can be angry, where you can be grieving, where you don't go out smiling sweetly fine, thank you.

00:30:15:21 - 00:30:38:05
Speaker 1
Where you can can just put it down and and have a safe place. And that's the other beauty of recovery is we know you were broken to get in that room. We know that you know what life is about. And so we're just grateful that I don't know if you were mentioning earlier your journey in in groups.

00:30:38:07 - 00:30:59:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was thinking about that. I was praying a little bit this morning, getting ready to come here and talk about it in a I, I felt I'd say just share what recovery has meant to you. And I was thinking about how, you know, when you're in. I got started early in addiction and so there was a lot of things I never learned how to do.

00:30:59:09 - 00:31:22:03
Speaker 2
And it's embarrassing, but they're very basic things. Talk to people, you know, manage emotions, be in a relationship with someone in a healthy way, you know, even just daily routines. I remember when I first quit drinking, I would come home from work and I'm like, what do people do when they get home from work if they don't drink?

00:31:22:05 - 00:31:51:00
Speaker 2
Like literally, I had no idea how to handle, like a balanced, routine day. And so I think about recovery groups and how much you learned there just by being there. It's not just the steps and it's all these other things on the on the peripheral to that. You know, you watch how people live their life and you start to pick up things that, you know, I learned how to be in a relationship with someone.

00:31:51:00 - 00:32:14:17
Speaker 2
I learned how to say, no, I don't like that or I don't want to do that. I learned how to accept it when someone says that to me, you know, I there's so many different things over the years I thought about that. I thought, wow, all of those little lessons just by interacting with people. You have people like Jamie model things and you're like, I really like how she did that.

00:32:14:19 - 00:32:35:16
Speaker 2
Next time I'm going to do it like that too. That worked well, You know, you just learn so much just by being there. And it's, you know, all of a sudden you you're living life, you know, and it's it's you learn how to live life without your addiction and you learn how to do it with God. And you have all these other people doing the same thing.

00:32:35:16 - 00:32:43:14
Speaker 2
And you just I don't think I could ever say all the different pieces, how they come together. It's it's really amazing.

00:32:43:16 - 00:33:07:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, That is such an important point in terms of not if you grow up in a in A and especially in an addict in family, you don't learn how to live, you don't learn, You, you know, families are responsible for socializing children. And when all of the attention is going to trying to manage the unmanageable and keeping a peace that does not exist, then you don't learn those basic life skills.

00:33:07:19 - 00:33:28:03
Speaker 1
And so then you're left sort of out to hung out to dry when you get sober. And so just being with a group of people who are stumbling along, trying to learn how, but then you see people who are who are a little bit ahead of you, and that's where hope is. You see that it works. You see that people do heal and people do get and get a life back.

00:33:28:03 - 00:33:54:09
Speaker 1
And we used to say recovery is like a country record. Play back backwards. You know, you get your life back. You get you get things back. And I think the other part of teaching is that you're expected to get a sponsor. A sponsor is someone who helps you learn to walk the program. You know, that helps you learn to grow, to keep to keep you accountable is not that anyone can really keep us accountable.

00:33:54:09 - 00:34:16:15
Speaker 1
I mean, I can lie to somebody who's a my sponsor just as easy as I can allow to somebody who's not. But what happens is when I'm in a safe place with a safe person, where I know I don't have to lie. Number one, they will pointed out that I may be lying at some level, but also that when there's no reason to lie, we know when we lie.

00:34:16:17 - 00:34:39:23
Speaker 1
And so when you're with somebody that you know is there for you and you're lying to them, then you can see the lie began again. I remember being in a group really early on and and it was a very safe group. We loved each other. We were committed to each other. And and as I said, I had two cookies and I really had the whole box.

00:34:40:01 - 00:35:01:23
Speaker 1
And I noticed it and I thought, why did I say that? I could have said I had a box of cookies. But but it's not just in your addiction is in all areas of your life that we tend to embellish or minimize or distort truth and when we start to do that, it begins to endanger our recovery, because recovery depends on us lying to ourselves.

00:35:02:01 - 00:35:25:00
Speaker 1
It depends on us doing that. So staying in community, and then we've got scripture. AA has its sayings like One day at a time, keep it simple, stupid. But Scripture is so filled with, you know, peace be still in know that I am God. We have so many things that we can pull out to change our thinking, you know, to help us to quiet our mind.

00:35:25:00 - 00:35:51:13
Speaker 1
Because one of the really big things is we have noisy minds. You know, we're always thinking, thinking too much, and to quiet our minds and so the the beauty of the wholeness of of a true recovery program is is, I think, true church. I mean, it is it is it is true church. And and it's a place where we are learning to love.

00:35:51:13 - 00:36:15:16
Speaker 1
We are learning to walk together. We're learning to do the things that make life work. And we're learning that we're not perfect and we're never going to finish those steps, you know, And but we can go to one of the steps every time life begins to be a struggle. There's something that we're doing that is not or not doing that we should be that can prevent us from getting to that edge.

00:36:15:18 - 00:36:24:04
Speaker 1
And so it's really beautiful. Anything else you might want to say about recovery itself.

00:36:24:06 - 00:36:49:07
Speaker 2
What you said about the scripture? I think that's the I think I've know I've met people in church who aren't in recovery. And it can be like a baffling thing to explain to somebody like, why do you need to do that? Why can't you just go to church and read the Bible? And I don't know that there's one path everyone has to take, but I know for myself it's not about it being different than church.

00:36:49:07 - 00:37:15:22
Speaker 2
It's just about we're all there with the same struggle and we're using this pathway to be a part of the church in that scripture. That to me, that's the beauty of like the Christ centered program is we are all praying to the same God, worshiping the same God, acknowledging the same God, and we have the Bible that is our guide.

00:37:16:00 - 00:37:44:21
Speaker 2
And so it's that foundational piece, I think is the big difference, because at the end of the day, that is what we're all going back to. And that is different. That's different than everyone having their own idea. And so there's a piece of it there that there's a spiritual piece there that God is moving in a way that is not something that any of us are doing or just get to be a part of it.

00:37:44:22 - 00:38:09:18
Speaker 2
And so that part of it, too, I think is worth mentioning that being a part of that is really plugging into the church but just through this one avenue. And that's been amazing. I've seen the most amazing things and very grateful for it. The friendships and the bonds formed in that shared experience are.

00:38:09:20 - 00:38:10:10
Speaker 1
It becomes a.

00:38:10:10 - 00:38:11:09
Speaker 2
Tried and.

00:38:11:11 - 00:38:40:11
Speaker 1
There really is I mean, it's just a an amazing way of of life. And I think that for anybody, it's an amazing way of. Yeah. It never ever works. And well, I am so glad that you were here. This is fun and and I'm glad that it's just very heartwarming for me to just I feel like a parent sometimes just just to to watch people grow.

00:38:40:11 - 00:38:44:07
Speaker 1
And you've been great and just really. Thank you.

00:38:44:11 - 00:38:52:00
Speaker 2
Thank you. I could go on and on about that. Thank you. You have been an amazing mentor and friend to me and I appreciate you.

00:38:52:02 - 00:39:13:20
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for joining us today and for making peace and beyond podcasts. If you enjoyed this podcast, we just would encourage you to subscribe, to write a review, give us support, share it with your friends, and join us on all of our other social media. We are everywhere. We are on Tik Tok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and we just love being with you.

00:39:13:20 - 00:39:19:12
Speaker 1
And our prayer is that you would continue to grow in your own faith and God bless you.