Making Peace & Beyond Podcast

Jamie (Intro): Have you ever wondered how to make sense out of your messy life? Or how to live in peace in the middle of a stressful world? My name is Jamie Norton, and I want to welcome you to the Making Peace and Beyond podcast, where we talk about life struggles and how to live in the peace, joy and freedom that Christ died to give us.

Jamie: Hello and welcome again to Making Peace of Mind podcast. Today, I'm really excited to once again be with Michael Campbell, who is our marriage pastor at Grace Church. And both of us deal a lot, Michael, with marriages and there's some really difficult things, marriage being the most sacred relationship ever, but the most difficult ever. So I thought today maybe just talk about what we both experience in working with people in their marriages. So hello.

Michael: Hello. I'm very happy to be here. Marriage is something that obviously I'm super passionate about and it can be discouraging when you encounter maybe people not seeing eye to eye with each other within marriage and through just seeing broken relationships in general. So, Lord willing, this conversation can help bring to light or encourage convict if necessary, marriages or people entering into marriage. So I'm really grateful to be here. Jamie.

Jamie: I think one of the things it would be helpful is to look at where we see the most walls coming up, the most barriers coming at what destroys relationships. So why don't relationships just meld together? Because people get married with great expectations. And I think beginning there, that's one of the biggest reasons marriages fail, is because people have unrealistic expectations of marriage. You know, especially when I was coming along. I think it's a little different today. But the expectation was that marriage was going to be the end all, be all it was going to save you. It was going to make you into somebody you weren't. And that was, you know, really promoted by the fairy tales such as Cinderella, who had discovered hard before Prince Charming came along and said, why couldn't he wake up? You know, So, I mean, it was it was like Prince Charming is coming. And when he comes, he's going to fix everything in your life. And that was that. That is just not regal because people expect from each other what only God can give and we look at what what are those things that are that are limited to what only God can give?

One of those is security. Yeah. Another person cannot make you secure. You know, they can't make you valuable or significant. They can't make you. They can't give you an identity. Yeah, they can't give you meaning a purpose. And they really cannot generate the fruit of the spirit. Love. Good peace, joy, goodness, kindness, patience, loyalty, self-control. And yet we go into a relationship expecting another human being to do that, and only God can do that.

And so we have a say in that you have to be independently mature enough in Christ in order to be maturely dependent with each other. So good because all of those things have to be in place for a healthy relationship. So I don't know. What do you think?

Michael: I mean, that's amazing. One of the root issues that I think we can easily say pride. That's a very generalized way of saying like what gets in the way of marriage. And really that is one of the biggest root issue and sin in general. But those expectations are setting the other person up for failure, thinking that they're they're the savior of this relationship, or they fall into the trap where the marriage is for them.

And I say that because like, okay, when we get married, how are they going to serve me? What is our life going to look like? And I always try to encourage people who are entering to marriage that they are married for mission, not just married for each other. Like it is a great blessing and opportunity that we have this side of heaven to be married to somebody else.

But we have one from a biblical perspective, like a biblical worldview, like we are married individually for a specific goal, to go in to make disciples and to all the world baptizing them. Name of the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, go like and become more like Christ along the way. That's the sanctification journey. If we understand that saying like we both have that goal, husband and wife, we both have that goal, then it's less about me and more how we can be helpers for one another in accomplishing that set goal.

And I don't think that's communicated early enough because marriage is people entering in naturally just focus on self first.

Jamie: Absolutely. I think, you know, I tell people sometimes in pre-marriage counseling, you know, the best thing you can remember about this whole marriage is that one of you is going to bury. The other one of you is going to bury the other. You are not each other's savior. And to have a joint purpose when we come to to marriage, we make a vow.

And we make a vow to God. Yeah, you know, that vow is to love on a chair. And sometimes, you know, people will go back to. Well, I made a vow. Yeah, but in the meantime, they've spent years yelling at somebody, being nasty to somebody, disrespecting somebody, dishonoring somebody because of unrealistic expectations and unmet need. And and I want to say, what did you vow to do?

Yeah. Because what you vowed to do, it makes it essential that God stay in the middle of your relationship. I mean, we say that a relationship without God in the middle is a light like two ticks without a dog. I mean, you just suck each other dry, you know? I mean, it is, it is not going to, to work. And then everybody gets mad at everybody because what we do in the dating relationship, we date terribly. I mean, yes, we direct marriage very badly. You know, we we we put on our best face. Yeah.

Michael: Dating. And one of my favorite quotes I've ever heard is by an author, Speaker Jefferson Bethke. And he said, Dating without the pursuit of marriage is like going shopping without any money. You either leave disappointed or take something that doesn't belong to you. And it just totally I loved early on, I never heard that's the truth. And I think there's three misunderstandings in marriage that everybody falls into.

Myself included. I've been married 11 years, 13 years together. Three kids love my wife. But we even fell into this. There's the naivete and ignorance that, hey, we live in a fallen and sinful world. That means in our marriage there's going to be outside stuff that comes in regardless of how good we are. Like there's an outside sinful world that we're living in.

The second is I'm a sinner, married to a sinner. So not only are the affects possibly coming in from the outside, they're also going to affect each other. And the third thing we forget is that God is faithful and powerful and willing to be there with us in those seasons because when we're getting the attacks, it's easy to be like, Now, how am I going to get out of this?

How am I going to fix this? God's with you and all of that. And I think if couples knew that the expectations in the bars would be lowered instead of putting people on a pedestal, they never deserve to be on.

Jamie: And have someone put you on a pedestal, usually that's really going to be shot down. It makes it a lot easier to hit you, you know, And that that is the the the willingness to really see each other as just another human being, as someone who is is also struggling to figure life out, who's also struggling to make life work, who has who has needs and limits and feelings just like you do.

And to be able to communicate that. One of the things that I believe is that love and truth are go simultaneously with the other. And one of the things I see when a relationship begins to fall apart is that people aren't honest, you know, that they they begin to hold things back. They become they have secrets. And yeah, in recovery circles, which I'm involved in, we say you're as sick as the secrets you keep and the relationship is is as sick as a secret. Said it holds. Yeah. And I've worked with people who have been married for decades, and there's major things that happened in one of them's life that the other one knows nothing about. Right? Yeah. I mean, sometimes I feel like saying you guys have been together for about 25 years. Do you think it's about time you met? Because they don't know each other.

They've never really spent that time getting to know each other. And it will be something I mean, as big as a previous marriage and abortion, you know, just the nature of the family. You came from, you know, illegal behavior that you do, addictions that you have. Yeah. You know, that that the other person has not known before they get involved in the relationship.

That is how that happened during their relationship. One of the most difficult ones is if someone falls away and has an affair. Yeah, that that often goes on for a long time. And what I find over and over again is that it doesn't mean that the marriage has to fail. Yeah, but what, what is hard to hard to accommodate or hard to forgive or hold to, hard to restore is trust.

Because for every lie in a relationship, once it's revealed and truth is always revealed, once it's revealed, trust is broken. Because I don't know who you are. And one of the central things about being married is I have to know who you are. I have to know that I can trust what you say. I have to trust you to do what you say you're going to do.

And when that's broken, it's just very, very difficult for people to restore it. And interestingly enough, the first time is not that hard. But then if it's broken again, every break is like a crack in the egg, and sooner or later the egg falls apart. Yeah.

Michael: I think my wife and I so Tiffany and I, when we got married, obviously we loved each other, but we were acting like roommates and a sorts if there was a conflict, we're like, well, let's kind of avoid that for the situation because like, we're supposed to just like, be happy and everything but me and my personality. And I think this happens and thank God that he used this situation for, for great.

So at the end of our first year being married, I just held everything in. I didn't know how to communicate properly, my feelings. I didn't know how much to tell her of my past. I didn't know what to share, what not to share, because I don't want break this marriage up. So I'll just keep it in. Whereas my wife just loves talking and like loves sharing emotions puts everything out honestly.

Jamie: She does. Yeah.

Michael: And we got to ahead at the end of the first year where by God's grace, genuinely by God's grace, he broke us both completely. Everything was out on the table. We didn't go to sleep that night. We had music playing till four in the morning, just talking and crying and forgiving. And that was the most broken we've ever been.

Jamie: And the closest.

Michael: And the closest. And God used it, and that was at the end of the first year. So the whole first year we were doing great, but it was like we were just we didn't know how to communicate and we didn't know how to be fully known until God just intervened and said, I'm going to take it from here, I'm going to break you, but it's going to be something that I build upon.

And so at the end of our first year, that the next six months on was probably like the worst six month because we're building that trust over and over. But we always look back at that moment and that season as the worst, but also the best part in our relationship because we're like, okay, we never want to feel that again and that mutual traumatic experience like, like, how can we avoid that over communication, Not just transparency, complete vulnerability, like, Babe, I just messed up and like, here we are or vice versa.

And we want to build upon that saying no matter what you say, we are here for each other. We we're not just here because we made a commitment. We are here for something deeper that represents something deeper as well outside of ourselves. And so communication, it's become a cliche over the years, like communication is key, but it genuinely is honesty, humility, communication are all the soil in which a fruit filled marriage grows.

And if we don't have that, I think we're going to slowly see the exercise in futility that it actually is.

Jamie: And we have a definition of intimacy that is intimacy. I mean, intimacy is transparency. It's vulnerability. And I think it's really hard when you feel like you've failed, you feel like you didn't measure up, you feel like you've done something really wrong. You've got to confess something to the person that you care about the most, that you have done something that truly hurt them.

And yet it's a very, very important thing that that truth stay present in that relationship because of because otherwise the intimacy, the transparency, the vulnerability goes away. And without vulnerability, love cannot exist. I mean, it is it is love requires truth. It requires that we be knowledgeable about each other. And and so it's really very difficult because we tend to not work through things.

We are cancel culture. And so we see so much of that. And if you grew up at a family that didn't talk about things where there were a lot of secrets, where there were these strong no talk rules that said we can't talk about somebody's addiction. We can't talk about somebody who's raging where we're trying really hard to keep a peace that did not exist and does not exist or never exist because we're stuffing and stuffing and it gets everybody in that gets sick.

But you go out of that family thing and I'm never going to do that with my family. I'm going to have the perfect family. I'm going to have the perfect relationship. I'm going to have the perfect kids. Yeah. And then we go into it speaking a language of survival that does not allow for that kind of discussion. Plus, we don't have the tools for it.

You don't learn how to face conflict. You conflict is simply an individual difference. It is not a competition. Who's right and who's wrong and who the good guys are. The bad guys. We're all bad guys. So, you know, it's not about looking at who the right and wrong people are. It's about willing to look at it. How can we accommodate our individual differences in a way that most of our needs get met?

You know, how can we do that? Yeah. And so as we work into that, it's there's there's something about moving away from the right wrong, good, bad and moving in to this is an opportunity for us to learn more about each other, learn more about God, to seek God's help here, to grow stronger, instead of looking at it as as a problem to be solved, but to look at as God has brought us to the opportunity to face ourselves.

That's right. And there's no relationship because God given boundaries or time and space. And when you put a lot of your time and space in with somebody else's time and space, it's going to step on each other's toes if it doesn't. I remember when I was in graduate school, one of my professors said, If you're in a marriage, it has no conflict in it.

Then somebody is lying off, you know, and and it's not going to make it. And I was married at the time, and it was such a lie. I mean, it was we were never I had no idea how to be married and neither did he. Yeah. And and and I was like, not my marriage. Yeah. Yeah. That never happened.

And sure enough, he ran off with my best friend a couple of years later. But it was. It was really. I never forgot that statement.

Michael: Yeah. I had a, I do pre-marital counseling and I had this, it was a young couple 20 and 21, and they were checking all the boxes like, Hey, we're going to communicate, we're good at this. And then there was one part of the conversation where it's like, All right, if she does this, then I'm going to divorce her and and I, I read his responses, you know, infidelity, abandonment, physical abuse.

I was like, okay, you know, you're Bible fine. But if I were to say that up front and this never downplays any sin ever. So that that's not what I'm saying. But let's say there starts to be maybe somebody starts looking at pornography or maybe has an emotional affair with somebody at work that that expectation, that boundary has already been set.

So if it starts to happen, you're like, I can't say anything because if I if I do it, they're going to leave me. And so by having that right off the bat of just like this happens, we're done, That's the contract, not a covenant. And that is actually creating an environment of isolation and seclusion instead of forgiveness and grace, which we constantly need to be reminded of.

Again, never excusing sin, inappropriate times too, to take a step back, but it is saying how do we live in a way that is forgiving first and grace filled first, knowing that marriage isn't just a contract of it. Listen, you hold up your end of the bargain or I'm going to leave you. That's not what God intended originally for marriage to represent.

And so I'm seeing this in relationships that I counsel all the time like that. They do fall into that trap of doing the check marks in their relationship and expecting the other person to fill all of them. And then let's say the other person isn't filling them, then they'll go to them, unfortunately. And I've at times like, Listen, I'm doing all this stuff, what are you doing? And that's so.

Jamie: That is such a common statement, right? It is. You know, at the I think it is that fear of disclosure. Yeah. Prevents people from getting help in time. You know, I mean, there's a point at which a wounded body cannot be healed. I mean, there is a point that you bled to death and there's a point when a disease advances because you didn't get it checked in time.

Yeah. And, you know, by the time people come to me and sometimes to you, they often have waited so long. That's right. And instead of saying I've. I'm attracted to this person at work, they have now got a full blown affair going with this perfect person at work. And it makes it much, much harder on each one to walk in that grace and walk in that forgiveness center.

It doesn't mean it can't happen if both people and that's the other thing. I have a lot of couples that come to me and they want their spouse to be fixed. Yeah, you know, I was talking to a woman not too long ago and and and the first I don't know how many minutes of the session were spent just berating, putting down, criticizing, you know, her spouse.

And I finally just said, why are you here? And also the intimacy and physical intimacy had been out of the relationship for years. And I said, what are you doing? And she said, and she said, I made a vow. And I said, What did you vow to do? Yeah, you know, because. Because making a vow is not a is is specific, you know, and and when that is when that is broken, that I'm the one I need to look at.

Yeah. You know, and, and I get it. But very often when people come to me they want me to be a judge. You, I'll ask them, Are you here for justification or restoration? Because if you're here for justifying nation, you're in the wrong building. I don't wear robe and I don't have a gavel. And I mean, I'm about restoration, you know?

And if you want justification, if you want to justify your bad behavior for to justify your your disrespect and dishonoring another person, then I can't be here with that. If we can both go to that place so we can honor each other, then we got a chance of making it work.

Michael: Amen. You're reminding me of sounds strangely like Psalm chapter one. A lot of people, when they encounter sin or they make a mistake, they're like, Oh, it's was just it was just a one time thing. But then Psalm chapter one in scriptures talks about like blesses men who walks out in the council, the wicked sits in the seat or stands in the seat of scoffers and sits in the secret of the wicked.

So like there's a progression that you see. There's walking, standing, sitting. And so a lot of times we don't really we don't know how we got there and like this was just a one time, but there's a series of events that took place and one's personal disciplines that led them to that behavior. So let's say it is an emotional or like a physical affair or whatever.

There's stuff and like safeguards that you've started to neglect or take care of to prune in order to protect that. And so when we see couples coming in where it seems like where were you six months ago, where were you 12 months ago in order to like, safeguard these things? And I think we would be in a better spot if we were constantly being self aware and self-reflective.

Like, Hey, I know we're Rocky right now, but there's still a lot in my own life that I should work on for the sake of our marriage. Even if your spouse isn't there yet. Again, if Christ is in them, they God has the same goal, like the Holy Spirit is going to make His children like himself. Now, the pace at which that happens is different.

Like my level of growing to become like Christ is looks different than how my wife Tiffany is. My way is not better, like my Holy Spirit's more effective than yours. Like, what are we talking about? Like God has each person on their journey. And so I always try to reflect back like you might think you're checking the boxes, but what else in your life can you safeguard so that you avoid those big catastrophic things?

Or thinking like, How did we get here? Got here because you compromised in so many different areas, which makes it challenging.

Jamie: I think one of the big things that interrupts marriage is addictive behavior, whether it's alcohol. Yeah, I just cannot tell you how what a destructive force alcohol is in a marriage because your ability to love and your ability to be rational, to my talking to a person who's who's intoxicated is a lot like trying to talk to a light blue light, blow out a light bulb.

I mean, you know, it looks like a candle, but it's a light bulb. Yeah, yeah. Because your your rational brain is compromised. You know, pornography is is absolutely destructive and disrespectful. You know, there's I mean, gambling. I work with people whose whose spouse has used up half of the family money or more. Yeah. And just the raging I mean, there are things that cannot and one of the one of the things that I believe is that until that behavior is managed, we cannot work on the relationship.

Until that behavior is I mean, is it's impossible to heal a marriage if somebody is going to continue to drink, is going to continue to drug, is going to continue to watch pornography. Yeah. So getting that behavior under control first. Yeah. And then we work on the relationship. But in the meantime, the partner has to work on themselves.

That's right. Because you're building up a feelings of being betrayed, abandon resentment. And so without help, that stuff just keeps on creeping up, too. So the whole relationship sinks. Yeah. And so it's just so important to clear the way for love to come in. And when you're in an addictive state, that can't happen. But I do believe that love is the most powerful force on the face of the earth.

We were created by love for love to love out of love. Yeah. And so if and you can tell when love is still there, you can tell if a couple is really, you know, fairly quickly, even if they're pretty sick. Yeah. You can really see if there's hope, you know, if the hope is there. But sometimes from in my practice, people will come in to check that box.

We tried counseling and it didn't work. And I that, you know, counseling doesn't work. Counseling does not work unless you work it, you know, I mean, if you expect a counselor or pastor or anyone else to fix you and you're not going to change a behavior this destructive, then you're not going to be fixed. You know, your story is being written by you.

Nobody else can read or write your story. And so we have to decide what our story is going to look like. And, you know, it's one of the what are the big things that when somebody has been betrayed in a marriage, you know, they they feel like a fool. And the world would tell them, you are a fool for staying with that person.

You're a fool. Yeah. And and I tell them, you know, if if you're a fool for loving, then Jesus is a fool because he loves us regardless. Yeah. You know, I mean, if. If I love somebody. Well, and love is not pink fluff cotton candy, I'm going to accept. I'm going to help you sin. It's I mean, it isn't about that.

But if I have true love and grace and in truth, then I face Jesus and he says, Job well done, my good and faithful servant. It's the person who betrays love that's the fool. You can't be a fool for loving, but the person who betrays love. We're fools because we betray God's love. Hey, man, you know and we are fool Because we betray each other's love.

Yeah, You know, and and so part of that is really allowing yourself to. To not let your love, your ability to love be squashed. Yeah. You know, because so often life hurt. Life is full of pain and suffering. People goof up. I mean, it is it is really important not to let your heart get hardened. Yeah.

Michael: I've heard love described as this. Love is a self-sacrificing good for another without demand for reciprocation. It's just like this unending sacrificial dedication to another without expecting anything in return. And that's very difficult. But I'm reminded of what marriage is and what represents and how we neglect that, too. And a lot of the problems, I think, could be avoided if we understand the gift that we've been given.

Again, specifically within marriage. Because when God created everyone and everything, we see this in Genesis one and two, it's all perfect. It is good. He's he made everything. It's good. It's good. It's good. Adam Eve That's very good. There's something different about us. And as the story goes, Genesis three, we see the fall of of Man, where we disobeyed.

We wanted to. We thought we knew better than God and we fell. And where there should have been death there, there wasn't. God immediately showed his grace. And my point is like, what did he do in that story? He he took him out of Eden. He took everything away from them. But the one thing that he didn't take away was the covenant of marriage.

He's like, Come, I'll let you keep that. And so literally, when I think of marriage, my view is this is the only thing that we have from the Eden, from Eden, from garden, the only thing we have. So when people look at my wife and I, as flawed as we are, they should be like, Oh, that's what it once was.

That's what it could look like. And that's what it will be one day. That's what we get to represent. And it's not that we're representing this place where representing a love that Christ has for his church. This is self-sacrificial love without demand for reciprocation mutually. And so it's the cycle of what we once were. And I think if we understand the beauty and opportunity that we have to show a world around us like how awesome marriage can be, I think there would be so much fruit that can come with it.

Because when I got married, all my friends were like, You got you just lost all your freedom. And I was like, I lost my freedom. If I lost my freedom in marriage, then you're doing it wrong. And so to me, marriage is one of the most beautiful representative images, again, of of Christ and his dedication to the church and his sacrifice for her.

Jamie: I just think there's a the danger in that number one is there's also a gift of singleness, which Jesus had and Paul had. That's right. You know, you don't you know, everybody is not designed to be married. And that is and that is something that I think is a strong push in the church. But I think there's another there are other callings as well.

Yeah. And it's also very, very typical, especially in church settings, for people to present rather than then live. You know, they do marriage. Yeah. They, they, they look happy. I have so many people come in and say everybody else looks so happy. And I say, You got to sit in my chair for a minute. And then I get up front, see to a lot of images, and I don't see that same couple in church on Sunday.

Michael: That's right.

Jamie: You know, and they because looking good and being good are two different things. And I think we do that in many ways often in the Christian community is we're supposed to always look good. We're supposed to always look happy, always look loving. Yeah. And that is disastrous because I don't know any people who always every morning wake up and say, you know, gee, I'm just so glad to see you today.

How I just want to give up everything for you today. I mean, today there's nothing about me. I mean, there's nothing that we can do that is going to make I think the perfect marriage has pain in it. I think it steps on each other's toes. I think we don't meet a need that we wanted that other person to meet.

I think that there are going to always be those times when when we don't look good, when we don't act good, you know. And and so to me, it's really important not to say we're going to skip our needs, limits, feelings and experiences and put on a front. Yeah. And, and I see that way too often because and it really makes it hard to again, because that's a lie.

It makes it hard for people to get help. I totally agree with you that marriage is the most sacred relationship ever, and when it is well done, yeah, it is the most beautiful thing ever and it's the most secure thing. You know, I watch my children. My children both have ended up with a really good marriages. And, you know, I'm really grateful because I never did I get to see a lot of marriages.

I get to watch a lot of marriages. I get to be involved in a lot of marriages. But the gift has been to be able to live really close to a couple of good marriages, you know, and to be able to to to see the beauty and the safety that my children feel with their partner. Yeah.

Michael: I'd say with with marriages, it's it takes a lot of work. Like if you were to buy a property just like an empty lot doesn't look great. Most lots are just land with a lot of bushes and weeds. And when you're entering into marriage, there's a lot of cultivating that needs to happen of like, okay, I need to maybe deconstruct this and I need to do some construction on this side.

So in marriage, like, okay, we're not trying to make the other person perfect, or Lord willing, that's not the expectation. But saying there might be some stuff since we are part of their story as well, how can we fix this and like maybe take this out of our system? Okay, maybe we'll plant some roses here because this was a great milestone for us and establish that over time, knowing that we are making something beautiful.

But knowing this side of heaven, that perfection is not here. And so shame on us as a church like Big Sea Church, if we ever put on a front, whether it's in with within marriage or dating or singleness, divorce, blended families, shame on us. If we ever put on a front like, Hey, we've got it, because then who's going to want to share anything?

Who's going to want to be vulnerable if everybody else has it? And that's not, I think, how the church was designed.

Jamie: Yeah, And I do think that it's important for us, not that many people come into marriage. I see a lot of people trying to get to the wedding. Yeah. And they haven't thought a minute about the marriage. Yeah, they're just trying to get to the wedding. And, you know, we did this big, big thing.

Michael: They urgency towards that marriage. They're trying as fast as.

Jamie: They can and they don't even have a clue what they're getting into. But they're they're trying really hard to to go into something that has been a fantasy that they've had. And the person that they're married and they've put into their own fantasy about who that person is, and they go into it thinking, if I just love them good enough, long enough, hard enough, then and I don't have any needs, feelings and limits, then it's going to all be happy, you know, and they're going to become who I wish they were, and they're going to fit right into my fantasy of marriage and what it should be.

And so they set about trying to mold that person into the image that they created. And God did not create that image of marriage. They created their image for marriage. God does not live in our creation. We live in his creation. Yeah. And so too, to get that reversed and realize that God is just putting two creatures together who need to work on themselves. Yes, you know.

Michael: And to have that expectation like the other person also has that fantasy world that they're living in. And when you the other person doesn't meet those expectations, let's say they meet 70% of them or what are they going to do with that 30%? They're going to try to find it in someone or something else when they should have never been the person that you're finding hope and peace in because that's only provided through one. That's Christ himself.

Jamie: Going back to the unrealistic expectations and really getting just real and honest about who you are and who you aren't. Yeah, And it's it's really important that that people stay with true truth has never been popular. It's never been popular in relationship with Christ. I mean, we killed Jesus because he brought truth in the world. Yeah. I mean, basically we don't like it.

And the truth about me is not something I often want to hear. And yes, it's I would rather be that person who, you know, has everything together, who doesn't have any needs, who can handle it. Yeah, I got it, you know, But I'm not that person.

Michael: I want to be that person, too.

Jamie: I'm sorry, Michael.

Michael: I know. But in conversation, I think what I've witnessed and you as well, like we see people who try to be right instead of getting it right. And I think we would if we started with a posture of humility in literally every conversation, it doesn't even have to be in conflict. But saying whatever situation I could be the one who's wrong in this.

And you you might not be, but like, could you be wrong? Yes. I think starting with that posture can help take away some of the walls that people have up in every conversation. Just being a good listener, being humble, being transparent and vulnerable at times in those conversations. Yeah.

Jamie: Humble gratitude is is is the best way to live life. The best way to live life is is to walk in humility and gratitude. And, you know what are the things I see when couples do the hard work of coming back together after they've broken apart? Yeah. Is that are their relationship is richer than they ever dreamed it could be.

Yeah. Because all of a sudden it's real and they don't have to pretend and they don't have to do hard things and it's really important to realize that forgiveness does not require another person to do penance forever. Yeah, you know, I see that.

Michael: Bringing it up over and over and over again.

Jamie: Yeah, it's I mean, if I shoot you, you're going to bleed. Yeah. And I can put the gun down, and. And I need to pay attention to your now bleeding. Yeah. You know, and I shouldn't. Well, why are you still bleeding as I put the gun down? So that's one issue that comes up is, okay, I'm not doing that anymore while you still are at it.

The other one is how do I deal with the wounds that were caused by that behavior? How do I rebuild trust? How do I feel loved again? How do I feel significant in your life again? And and and, you know, to be able to have the conversation is is important to help people plan a time, make a date to talk about it because you don't want it to permeate 24 seven.

But if you have questions if you need to say I'm struggling, if you need to do that, do it. Yeah. You know, have a time when you can grieve the loss of of of the innocence of the relationship when you had to get to the maturity of the relationship because relationships start out pretty innocent, but then they have to mature. Yeah. You know, and so it gets messy. It really is messy. You know, It really is.

Michael: I mean, this is one of those times where, like, I'm listening to you and like super convicting like, oh, gosh, I, I those are so helpful understanding. All right. Truth has been laid on the floor. Here we are. Now, how do we not just kick people when down? Like, how do we walk with them in that and empathize and show compassion for and forgiveness and love because I think that's really where you're you're truly known and truly where you have the opportunity to show that true love to them.

When you feel like you really don't deserve it.

Jamie: Because that's so we come back to the to the sake of being that what makes life doable is to be fully known and fully loved and fully known and fully loved. And that's where we're trying to get to. And when a marriage succeeds in doing that, yeah, there's no stronger bond, there's no stronger thing on Earth than that. And so it's really good. Yeah. So do you have other things you would like to bring up before? I just think that one.

Michael: More thing for, for couples just to work at it. Just to work at it, I, I show a lot of grace to people when they're trying and a lot of people throw in the flag too early just because that's the easy way out. And most of the time, I mean, the hard stuff, the stuff worth having is difficult to to accomplish.

And so any couple that's out there seek accountability. Don't be so prideful where you can't ask for help from somebody in your life, whether it's your pastor, your friend, family member, seek help. If you are struggling in marriage, whether you've been married for three months or 30 years, I think I would encourage everybody to find the humility to like, listen, I don't know what we're doing right now and we may have figured out like you, we are amazing, have a very healthy marriage, but there could be something in the next few months where it's like, whoa, And the enemy is just using that to like, put a football foothold in.

And when we get distracted from everybody, when we get distracted from the true purpose, that's where there's no flourishing, there's no light. And that's where the enemy of God likes to sit. And he's like, look, look how distracted they are. Look how against each other. They are so concerned to seek forgiveness for yourself towards other people, the humility to do it, to work on it, to ask for help and to keep on working at this and showing love without demand for reciprocation is every step that I would tell every marriage.

Jamie: Which remind me of of one of the thing. A lot of people get love and control mixed up with each other and they think, because I love you, now I get to control you. And they and the spouse becomes a possession, you know, like, I don't want you to go out with your friends. I don't want you to be gone from me. You can't do things without me so that marriage will die because. Another person is not your possession.

Michael: And hey, man.

Jamie: Marriage is not an enslavement. And so, you know, it's really important for a couple to stay in community, to have a life that does not include the spouse, to do bring to the fire. It's like I've described it as a campfire. And it's nice to sit around that fire at night and warm and talk about the day, but you got to go out and collect wood for the fire.

Yeah, You know, to keep it burning, you got to be actively involved in the world that you live in. You've got to have other people in your marriage. I mean, in your life and and, and, and to be a part of something bigger than the two of you. Yeah. You know, not because that is. That is going to get old and it's going to get stifled and to not see the partner as a possession, that's another big thing that comes into my office.

Yeah. Is to see the partners of possession.

Michael: Or you see the same thing with children being the glue of the relationship. And that's like what happens when they're 18? They move out and then, then what relationship have you had or have you cultivated?

Jamie: I told a mother one time, I'm in a hospital. As you say, your child can grow up. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, right. It's important. And like you're saying, like it's your vertical relationship with God is of utmost importance in regards to the the horizontal. Until you figure out you and your relationship with God to try to work on vertical relationships or horizontal will eventually betray you. So focus on your relationship with God first and foremost, in order to fully flourish horizontally.

Jamie: So get getting back to being independently mature enough in Christ to be mutually dependent. Man, it's always good talking to you. You as well. I really love it and love it.

Michael: Thank you.

Jamie: And I'm glad that you're here and I'm glad that y'all are here as well. And if you liked what you heard today, please follow us on Making Peace and Beyond podcast. We appreciate any ratings that you give, any comments that you give, reviews that you give. And there's a lot more on Making peace and beyond media. We have podcast, not only podcast, but we have Facebook and TikTok and and a website making Peace and Beyond Beyoncé so far is if you will and God bless.